Talk:Human history
Today's edits The edits today, by an IP user, seem to have removed a great deal of the episode references from the information, and reverted the article to an earlier state, and another user has since edited this -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 21:50, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) :Archivists editing this article should be sure to reference an episode when adding information. The below information, associated with the pna-inaccurate message was again added into the article, even after being removed. :To make it clear -- no information should be added back into this article without an episode reference, or it will be removed back here -- also, please refrain from removing episode references that already exist in the text! -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 22:05, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) :We could and should find a way to format and rehabilitate the following sections: *Roman Empire - ("Bread and Circuses", others) ** Christianity - ditto, Christmas *Renaissance - (VOY & da Vinci) *Rise of Communism - any episode or movie where they said "commie" ;) ** Vietnam - "A Private Little War" ** Cold War - "Our Man Bashir", "Change of Heart" * 9/11 - was seen in the "timestream" segment at the end of "Storm Front" -- someone should catalog the events covered in that episode. I can't recall any good WWI references, so I don't recommend more than one line describing it unless we find any. -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk 22:05, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) :I'm not sure what exactly you are implying as far as "also, please refrain from removing episode references that already exist in the text!"? If that is in reference to the =pna= I added in terms of the below info, it was removed for lack of specific episode-related reference and relevance, as I attempted to mention while removing the text. --Gvsualan 23:18, 9 Apr 2005 (EDT) An editor on April 9 removed all of the inline episode references you added, and reverted all of the text you removed (below), and put it back into the article ( http://memory-alpha.org/index.php?title=Human_history&diff=75224&oldid=75213 ). Thats what I mean. I removed it again, but the above topics i feel are worthwhile additions, but they need to be associated with episodic references, as you originally stated, before they can be added into the article -- Captain Mike K. Barteltalk : Ah, okay, thanks. --Gvsualan 03:42, 10 Apr 2005 (EDT) pna-inaccurate I believe there is far too much non-Trek related information in this article. We are all aware of human history and current events, but the purpose of this article is to view Star Trek's version of it - Saddam, Bin Laden, etc were never part of human history in terms of what should be included here. In terms of "modern histroy", it should just be mentioning things like Gary Seven, Khan Noonien Singh and so forth. It also requires several references yet. --Gvsualan 17:28, 8 Apr 2005 (EDT) The following was removed for the aforementioned reasons: :In 510 BC, the Roman Republic was founded in the city of Rome, Italy. In 23 BC, Octavian was named Emperor Augustus by the Roman Senate, turning the republic into an empire. The Roman Empire expanded considerably over the centuries, spreading its culture throughout Europe, until it finally collapsed in 476, being conquered by northern invaders. This event embarked Earth's Dark Ages. :''Ancient civilizations had emerged in Asia and the Indian subcontinent by this time, leading to the formation of the nation of China and to the formation of the ancient Hindu religion. In the Middle East, the pre-Classical Greek Minoan culture was destroyed by a volcanic eruption, triggering mass migrations throughout the ancient world. Among the peoples to migrate from Egypt to Caanan are a group of tribes that would later become known as the Israelites, who would later create the foundation of Judaism -- forming, with influence from Zoroastrianism, one of the first monotheistic religions. After the Roman conquest of Judea, the region once known as Caanan, Israel, and which would later be known as Palestine, Judaism gave rise to Christianity and to Islam. :''A number of ancient African trading empires had evolved by this point, as well, as had aboriginal cultures in Australasia and the Americas. One of the most powerful of the African empires was the nation of Ethiopia. :''The First World War, initially referred to as the Great War, was the culmination of over a century's worth of tensions between the European colonial powers. The war was fought mostly on the European continent from 1914 to 1918, being the first to deploy a whole new arsenal of modern warfare, including tanks and poison gas. The war was won by the Allied nations, which included the United Kingdom, France, and the United States of America. The Czar of Russia had been overthrown by Bolzhevik revolution shortly before the war ended, leading to the establishment of the "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics", aka the Soviet Union, a so-called "Communist" dictatorship that violated the principles upon which traditioal socialism and Marxism had been established. :''The Cold War would end in the early 1990s, when the "Iron Curtain" that divided western and eastern Europe was torn down after the fall of the Communist regimes in Eastern Europe in the late 1980s and the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991. :''The Cold War affected much of the planet, leading the United States to support a number of dictatorial regimes in the Americas and Asia in an attempt to prevent other nations such as China or Cuba from falling into Communists hands. This policy lead to the tragic Vietnam War, in which the United States supported a murderous anti-Communist South Vietnamese regime and engaged in a number of sentient rights violations, so the war ended in a Communist victory. The Cold War also became hot in the form of the Korean War, fought by UN forces against the aggressive Communist North Korea and its Red Chinese and Soviet allies, and in the form of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the late 1970s. This invasion would later prompt the United States to provide material and financial support to a number of anti-Communist Afghan Islamic guerrilla terrorist forces, among them a Saudi known as Osama bin Laden, the future leader of Al-Qaeda whose mentor was Dr. Abdullah Yusuf Azzam, the father of modern ''jihad and the leader of the MAK, one of the Afghan Islamic guerrilla terrorist resistance groups and the predecessor of bin Laden's organization. :In addition to the chaos of the Eugenics Wars, international terrorism was on the rise following the collapse of the Soviet Union. As the United States achieved unprecedented power, many from weaker nations came to resent its influence. Former Soviet enemy and US-allied terrorist Osama bin Ladin was among the most powerful of international terrorists, dedicating his international terrorist cabal, known as al-Qaeda, to the destruction of the US, the West, Israel, and other non-Muslim nations and to the opposition of Western influence. While bin Ladin's attacks were mostly symbolic and politically ineffectual, many lives were lost in his so-called ''jihad. In particular, bin Ladin's agents managed to destroy the World Trade Center Towers and to attack the US military headquarters, the Pentagon, in early 2001, leading to nearly three thousand deaths and the adoption of an aggressive antiterrorist foreign policy by the US government which collaborated with other nations to launch the War on Terrorism to liberate Afghanistan from their Taliban rulers who supported Al-Qaeda and destroyed Al-Qaeda bases along with half of its leadership, causing the Islamic international terrorist alliance to retreat to either the Afghan-Pakistan border or South Waziristan, Pakistan. The international scene was further disrupted by the much-criticized conquest and occupation of the nation of Iraq by the United States that resulted in the overthrow of dictator Saddam Hussein in mid-2003. However, the US found no evidence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, the main reason for the war and the United Nations declared the Iraq phase of the War on Terrorism illegal. The US-led Coalition occupation ended in 2004 while an anti-US-led Coalition insurgency still rages. ( , historical accounts) To be fair, Saddam and bin Laden both appear in the timestream at the end of . --Brad Rousse 01:32, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC) ---- Shouldn't we add somewhere that life on Earth began in France, 3.5 billion years ago ( )? -- Redge | ''Talk'' 02:18, 11 Aug 2004 (CEST) :Well, I won't stop you. :P I doubt it is necessary to ask such things. If you think it should be included, include it. Ottens 12:43, 11 Aug 2004 (CEST) ::The problem is, I can't find a place to include it in. It doesn't match with any of the existent text. Perhaps it should be included in the Earth article, rather than here since it isn't directly connected with human history. That's why I asked. -- Redge | ''Talk'' 14:53, 11 Aug 2004 (CEST) :::Hmm. You bring up a good point indeed. I think we should add a section The Distant Past to the Human history page, and made a note of it on the Earth page as well, concerning that human life originated in the region what is called France today. Ottens 15:39, 11 Aug 2004 (CEST) "Classical History" only refers to the Roman Empire, and states that the fall of the Roman Empire in Europe led to Earth's Dark Ages (as a whole. What about Han-dynasty China or India? The Fall of the Roman Empire actually roughly coincides with the fall of Han China (just a coincidence of history) and the start of the Chines Period of the Six Dynasties (a.k.a The Reign of Chaos, which would later form into the "Three Kingdoms" Period). So China's civilization did suffer similar tribulations at roughly the same time as Rome fell (it recovered, Rome never did) and India was actually the most advanced civilization for about a century. Further, the rise of the Islamic Empire about 300 years after Rome fell also could be seen as an end to the "Dark Ages" even though they continued in Europe. Captainmike, why did you revert the previous edit of this page? -- EtaPiscium 00:09, 19 Nov 2004 (CET) Ya know, for an article about Earth history, it's really, really Europe-centric... - Sci 06:10 8 September 2005 (UTC) *It also maintains the illusion of progress that helps us ignore the plight we have imposed on the peoples of the world. The best we can do is haul out the small references to other parts of the world and do what we can to make it a little more balanced. Unfortunetaly, the writers were raised on the same false history books as the rest of us and trek canon is historically lopsided as a result and there is not a lot we can do about that here. Jaf 22:18, 23 Oct 2005 (UTC)Jaf Deletion of Article? This article contains much that is non-canon and supposition. It requires a lot of attention, but at heart I don't think the article is needed. We have Earth, we have Human, and we have a Trek timeline. Why does this article need to exist? I would like comments on this as I don't want to put it up for deletion without getting at least someone else's opinion. Thanks. Aholland 00:03, 6 February 2006 (UTC) :Because simply, if someone took the time to collect all this information, it might be useful. Of course, non-canon and speculation should not exist on the article, so if you want to remove that or bring it up here, please go ahead. If after that, not enough information remains to justify an own article, we could merge the content back into Human (from where it was split because the section became too long). Earth is not the place to talk about "Human history", and the timeline is just that, not a place to dump all sorts of detailed information (otherwise we wouldn't need to have any other articles). Meanwhile, I would definitely oppose a deletion suggestion for this article. -- Cid Highwind 01:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC) I appreciate the response. Unfortunately, just because someone went to the trouble of collecting this information doesn't make it correct or desireable to keep. The problem is that the information collected is - near as I can tell - duplicative of other information within Memory Alpha, incorrect, or has little to no bearing on Star Trek (as opposed to the real world). Correcting it and editing it would be a large undertaking, with little benefit that I can see. Here is a partial summary of just some of the problems with this article, without even getting into duplicative information: :1. It purports to be the entire body of knowledge of both human evolution and all human society. It is very Euro-centric and does not discuss any known human ancestors (e.g., Neanderthal). :2. It hops around in time for no apparent reason. :3. It contains inaccurate references (e.g., using "All Good Things" when "The Chase" is meant.) :4. It contains partial information on Flint as, apparently, a side note since the article isn't about individuals per se. Other people are not addressed. :5. It contains long descriptions of historical events, then give Trek references to justify having them. However, the Trek reference might have done nothing except mention a single name (e.g., describing the Roman Republic's history because Khan mentioned Caeser.) :6. It makes a single broad sweeping statement that is supposed to explain the rise of Nazism. The statement is overly simplistic and its conclusions overly broad. :7. It erroneously claims that WWII is Earth's "costliest conflict" when WWII is established as killing many more people. :8. It has a long description of the Cold War, simply because Gary Seven was in the U.S. in 1968. :9. It makes conclusive statements as to dates and events that are non-canon as though they were (e.g., the date of the founding of a United Nations of Earth in 2113). :10. It contains broad, unsupported statements such as "Eager to explore the stars, scores of starships were launched in an exuberant search for knowledge about the galaxy" in the 22nd Century; or "United Earth intelligence had little success deciphering Romulan communications" during the Earth-Romulan War. Because of these, and others, I think the article might be non-salvageable. I hope to hear other opinions before putting it up for deletion. Aholland 04:31, 6 February 2006 (UTC) :It's your prerogative to suggest any or all articles for deletion, of course, but my earlier comment still holds true. To be a little more verbose: We have articles for the various species of the Trek universe, and Human is one of them. On these articles, we have sections for these species' histories, because "history" is a valid subtopic. As a general rule, we tend to move sections to their own articles if the become "too long" (there's no hardcoded rule about that, though). Conclusion of the above: This article, Human history, is generally valid, and should not simply be deleted because some of the information contained in it might not be. As long as there's some valid content, it should not be destroyed by deletion of the whole article - and if this wiki works, this will hopefully also be the answer you'll get if you suggest this page for deletion with that reasoning. Instead, working on the article to enhance it, or at least marking it as inaccurate, might be the better option. -- Cid Highwind 11:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC) ::Thanks for being verbose; I understand and appreciate your point much better now. Given that, I agree with you. I may undertake to overhaul this article to fix the problems I perceive in it. After all, whining won't get it fixed . . . . Aholland 11:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC) :::I revised the article to address what I perceived as its deficiencies. Aholland 22:07, 7 February 2006 (UTC) I agree. I just corrected three links that now redirect to "Early history". Subcommander Tal 01:47, 11 May 2006 (UTC) Sargon There was an addition to the article which says: "In 2268, a non-corporeal being named Sargon said that the idea of Adam and Eve may be based on his people who may have colonized Earth some six million years ago." That is true, but Kirk replies that 23rd Century science indicates that life evolved on Earth naturally. It was Spock who gave credence to the idea that Sargon's people might be Vulcanoid, borne out by his being a better host creature. Unless there is some compelling reason otherwise, the insert should be removed or confined to background and much better explained. Aholland 16:49, 27 May 2006 (UTC) Time stream This page needs to be updated based on info from the time stream in Storm Front, P2. Also, one bothering note is how the only info on the 20th century seems to be war, war, war, sputnik, war, war. There's plenty of important space leaps we should include (man on the moon, space shuttle, countries coming together to build an International Space Station) and the invention of computers and numerous other things, - all still within the purview of trek. And some final notes: I replaced the pic of Khan (even though I can't get it to be to good quality) as that was him in 1996, and the old pic was him in 22whatever. - AJ Halliwell 21:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC) Future's End Star Trek: Voyager takes place in 1996, and the Eugenics Wars seemingly never happened. Should we comment on this? That the west coast of the united states wasn't hit nearly as hard, or that they recovered? It seams to me that this was just careless writing on the half of the producers, but its cannon and must be dealt with. --Sdamon 05:12, 27 October 2006 (UTC) Ancient History Personally I think that the parts in this section (notably ancient Greece + the Egyptians) should be in chronological order (ie: instead of Greece being mentioned first Egypt should be and the city state of Sparta being mentioned within Greece's paragraph) what does everyone else think of this?? Lordvoid 14:00, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Pre-warp history I am extremely bothered by this line that I took out of the section: Some people believe that the stories of Spanish Inquisition torture are not supported by evidence and have been exaggerated. It isn't cited at all, and I can't recall any Trek references to the Inquisition that lead to doubt about its violence. In fact, in my historical career I haven't come across any Spanish Inquisition deniers... – Fleurdelista 03:31, 6 December 2008 (UTC) Changed quote :"Perhaps maybe a little Hamlet?" :"Oh no, I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony I say with conviction. "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty. In form, in moving, how express and admirable. In action, how like an angel. In apprehension, how like a god... "" :"Surely you don't really see your species like that do you?" :"I see us one day becoming that, Q. Is it that which concerns you?" ::- Q and Jean-Luc Picard ( ) I've removed the above quote and changed it something shorter. --| TrekFan Open a channel 11:17, April 5, 2011 (UTC)